his wiingnss and eagerness to listen all around to all kinds of different people and to learn. but mainly, i think just the word grace. it's customary to call bishops, i think, "your grace." sometimes it fits, sometimes it doesn't. but with martini, it certainly did. he was a gracious and open and personal man. >> and in a gentle way, you have said, i think in a gentle way pretty critical of the catholic church, he told an interviewer a few weeks ago, i read, that he thought the church was 200 years behind the times. how did he want it to change? >> yes, one of his great gifts, i think, was to be thoughtfully critical without being polemical. he could raise issues in a way that didn't make him any enemies. but he had a lot of interests.